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Genre
05-05-2008, 11:26 PM
There are two moral questions that Altruism lumps together into one "package-deal": (1) What are values? (2) Who should be the beneficiary of values? Altruism substitutes the second for the first; it evades the task of defining a code of moral values, thus leaving man, in fact, without moral guidance.

Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one's own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value--and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes.

Hence the appalling immorality, the chronic injustice, the grotesque double standards, the insoluble conflicts and contradictions that have characterized human relationships and human societies throughout history, under all the variants of the altruist ethics.

Observe the indecency of what passes for moral judgments today. An industrialist who produces a fortune , and a gangster who robs a bank are regarded as equally immoral since they both sought wealth for their own "selfish" benefit. A young man who gives up his career in order to support his parents and never rises beyond the rank of grocery clerk is regarded as morally superior to the young man who endures an excruciating struggle and achieves his personal ambition. A dictator is regarded as more, since the unspeakable atrocities he committed were intended to benefit "the people" not himself.

Observe what this beneficiary-criterion of morality does to a man's life. The first thing he learns is that morality is his enemy; he has nothing to gain from it, he con only lose; self-inflicted loss, self-inflicted pain and the gray, debilitating pall of an incomprehensible duty is all that he expect. He may hope that others might occasionally sacrifice themselves for his benefit, as he grudgingly sacrifices himself for theirs, be he knows that the relationship will bring mutual resentment, not pleasure--and that, morally, their pursuit of values will be like an exchange of unwanted, un-chosen Christmas presents, which neither is morally permitted to buy for himself. Apart from such times as he manages to perform some act of self-sacrifice, he possesses no moral significance: morality takes no cognizance of him and has nothing to him for guidance in the crucial issues of his life; it is only this own personal, private, "selfish" life and, as such it is regarded either as evil or at best, amoral.

Since nature does not provide man with an automatic form of survival, since he has to support his life by his own effort, the doctrine that concern with one's own interests is evil means that man's desire to live is evil--that man's life, as such, is evil. No doctrine could be more evil than that.

IMerq
05-05-2008, 11:27 PM
xD lol bobb and you need to settle this xD

UUilliam
05-05-2008, 11:29 PM
i wanna talk but i cba read all that lol

bbob
05-05-2008, 11:32 PM
I still rest my case, it is not evil, just stupid.

Because to accept the doctrine you find satisfaction in your morals, which defeats the whole thing. But let's set that aside for a moment and think about what happiness really is.

Happiness is something that only exists within the chemical reactions of you brain, so even a complete proletarian can be happy "knowing" that he is morally superior, not owning anything. Yes, it may be perverse, but still it works like that.

Genre
05-05-2008, 11:38 PM
This thread doesn't address happiness. What I am trying to say, simply, is that Altruism is a philosophy which encourages self-sacrifice. It encourages people to live selflessly. It states that acting to further ones own existence is evil. Because nature tends to kill people that live purely for others, this is a philosophy which encourages you to die. Indirectly, sure, but that is precisely what it does.

bbob
05-05-2008, 11:44 PM
Yes, but instincts are stronger than philosophy.

You are right as far as the theory goes, but for someone to accept it it is voided promptly..

The mere act of accepting something as a way of life roots in at least subconsious satisfaction. That is not theory but fact..

Genre
05-23-2008, 10:28 PM
Yes, but instincts are stronger than philosophy.

You are right as far as the theory goes, but for someone to accept it it is voided promptly..

The mere act of accepting something as a way of life roots in at least subconsious satisfaction. That is not theory but fact..[/b]
You were drifting from the point of the thread in this post.

bbob
05-28-2008, 07:23 PM
How so?

Genre
06-06-2008, 03:04 PM
How so?[/b]
You were arguing something that I don't disagree with, and something that isn't really the focus of the thread. Whether or not it causes satisfaction to accept something as a way of life, Altruism is evil.

bbob
06-06-2008, 09:27 PM
How can altruism be evil when it cannot exist? What does not exist cannot be evil.

Further more, evil is a personal definition, what you think is wrong, someone might think is fine, nomatter how revolting you find it.

Genre
06-07-2008, 06:38 PM
How can altruism be evil when it cannot exist? What does not exist cannot be evil.

Further more, evil is a personal definition, what you think is wrong, someone might think is fine, nomatter how revolting you find it.[/b]
It does exist. Whether or not people are subconsciously following it for their own benefit, they are following it. A philosophy that makes people happy as they sacrifice themselves for society is still making people sacrifice themselves for society.
I am talking about relative evil. If I find A to be evil, and you find B to be evil, that makes no difference. We are thinking objectively if we find different things to be evil for the same reason. Rand defines evil as anything that is anti-life.

bbob
06-08-2008, 09:33 PM
Well, if they are happy doing it, then whats the point stopping them doing it? In my oppinion its an ass-backwards way of doing it, but if it floats their boats, who am I to judge them, who is Rand to judge them? If they are not hurting anyone else, one should not force them to stop, offering help is something else. Remember that if you are forcably protecting people against themselves, you have become a tyrant.

We are all individuals, truth cannot be universal, only individual.

Genre
07-10-2008, 03:28 AM
Well, if they are happy doing it, then whats the point stopping them doing it? In my oppinion its an ass-backwards way of doing it, but if it floats their boats, who am I to judge them, who is Rand to judge them? If they are not hurting anyone else, one should not force them to stop, offering help is something else. Remember that if you are forcably protecting people against themselves, you have become a tyrant.

We are all individuals, truth cannot be universal, only individual.[/b]
Rand would not stop them, but they would still be incorrect. This is what she is saying.

She is saying that there is a single universal logically justifiable definition of good and evil. Whether or not people recognize this is not her concern. People may think that production is evil, she is not saying that they don't. She is saying that they are incorrect because there is no correct reasoning by which they could think that.